A Tale of Two Visions: Laura Roslin, Compared

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Second post, in which I go on at length. Contains DS9 comparisons.



Once upon a time, there was a sci-fi show in which the lead started out as a very rational, deeply sceptical man. Through some circumstances, he ended up being regarded as a religious icon by some people, something with which he was very uncomfortable at first. Being surrounded by people who were deeply convinced of their faith and who saw him as their hope in a desperate situation, he started to adjust to it, but remained more or less an agnostic until one day, he started to experience a series of visions. Visions which provided him with a series of clues, first how to find a lost city of those people, something that was a symbol of their past, and then about something concerning their future.
These visions did not come without a price. His health was seriously deterioting. It was an extremely delicate political situation. And then this man did something supremely irrational. Trusting the visions, he risked everything, risked destroying the touchy alliance that had started between his side and another side, by demanding what looked like an insane course of action.
He was listened to. (But only didn’t lose his job because of the religious icon status, which assured his organization couldn’t fire and replace him.) As it turned out, a few months later, his insane course of action saved a planet from being invaded and conquered by a superior force. The man was forever changed by the experience and became a man of faith. Actually, he ended up becoming a god himself in the final episode, which was years later. Mind you, he was not presented as being in the right afterwards all the time, and in fact was shown making serious mistakes or making some morally bad decisions if he deemed it necessary. In one of those AU episodes, we saw him going insane, and later in an asylum. But that particular decision, the vision-based one, turned out to have been correct.

The episode was Rapture, the show was Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and the man I was talking about was one Benjamin Sisko, Starfleet Captain. DS9 was regarded as revolutionary and atypical of ST in many things, not least because whereas all the other Trek shows tended to present religion as a superstition left behind with progress and enlightment (see also TNG’s Who Watches the Watchers) and regularly showed god-like entities to be not deserving of worship and being either unreliable tricksters (the Q) or up to no good in general (take your pick), an attitude best summed up with the sentence uttered in ST V, “Why does God need a spaceship?”, DS9 took religion seriously. Of course, it always presented alternative explanations. The Bajoran Gods, the Prophets, are regarded by Starfleet as wormhole aliens, which is just as viable; they’re able to provide Sisko with visions because they experience time in a non-linear way. But while he starts out thinking of them as wormhole aliens, he comes to convert wholesale to the Prophet pov, with Rapture being the big turning point. This development is not presented as a negative one. Rapture could get summarized as “Sisko goes nuts”, sure, but it was hailed as an amazing turnpoint for the character by the fandom at large instead.

One of the main writers of DS9, if you don’t know already, was one Ronald D. Moore, these days chief executive producer and headwriter of the new Battlestar Galactica.

Now fast forward to the very different fannish reaction to Laura Roslin in Kobol’s Last Gleaming, Part I. I’m sure I don’t have to point out the most glaring similarities. Including, of course, the two sets of equally viable explanations. Laura Roslin started to experience visions when she started to take the chamalla due to her deteriorating health. What she has seen so far could have been the product of her subconscious mind remembering parts of the sacred scrolls of her people, even if she consciously does not recall them. (For example, Roslin says that she didn’t read the scrolls of Pythia in Hand of the Gods, but Baltar in the same episode observes that everybody learns the verses from them in school (and then proceeds to forget them). Or they could be manipulated by the Cylons (which would explain why Roslin accurately saw the Cylon Leoben before she ever met him, and the manner of his death, though that could have been a self-fulfilling prophecy). Or they could, you know, be the genuine article. Seeing Kobol as it used to be for a moment, which is the final vision that convinces her and makes her take the step towards believer, doesn’t just remind me of Sisko finding the sacred city via visions (which convinces him to take the later vision regarding Bajor seriously, so seriously that he destroys everything he and Starfleet worked for regarding Bajoran membership in the Federation with one outburst) but of Heinrich Schliemann finding Troy. In his podcast, Moore observes that Laura approaches faith in “her usual logical manner, as a series of clues, a puzzle which she has to solve”. Heinrich Schliemann, deciding to take the Iliad as being literary truth instead of seeing it as a pretty legend talking of gods and heroes who never existed, found Troy. Laura, having seen the Kobol that was and having seen a brief vision of an arrow as well, decides to take the scrolls in just as literal a fashion, to take them as a guideline on how to find Earth.

As opposed to finding Troy or finding one old Bajoran city, finding Earth isn’t just of archaelogical or symbolic value, it’s a dire necessity. The ragtag fleet of humans can’t remain on the run from the Cylons forever. They have far, far less resources, and the lesser technology. They can’t settle down on Kobol, either; the Cylons are already there. And Kobol is the first planet with a breathable atmosphere they’ve encountered so far. Moreover, Adama promised Earth as a safe haven, a promise he and Roslin know he can’t deliver; to pretend knowledge of its existence was his short-term solution to the problem of giving the survivors of humanity new hope.

Now, Laura Roslin goes about her newly decided plan regarding the way to find Earth in a far more rational and clever manner than Sisko did regarding his vision. (Sisko just burst into the room where the final negotiations were to take place and yelled Bajor was not to join the Federation, and because they saw him as a religious icon, the Bajorans listened.) She first suggests the plan to Adama, notably not mentioning her visions at all. (My guess is she doesn’t because that would have required her to explain why she’s taking chamalla, but she probably also was aware that Adama wasn’t the type to consider “I’ve had a vision” as a good argument.) Instead she takes the Heinrich Schliemann route, the “what if we take the scrolls literary, and search following their instructions” one. Adama says no. Roslin then circumvents him by talking directly to Kara Thrace in order to convince her to go to Caprica and retrieve the scroll-and-vision defined instrument to find Earth. Being the good politician she is, she does so by pressing just the right buttons with Kara, but, and this is important, not by lying to her, and not by giving her a direct order.

I happen to think that Roslin made a mistake, that she should have tried to win Adama over again because it was obvious from the start that he would take this interruption of the military chain of command, and the hijacking of an important military asset, very badly indeed. But she was pressed for time, more so than she usually is. Her idea to use Kara didn not occur to her until Tigh mentioned Kara would use the Cylon Raider as a Trojan Horse to destroy the Basestar, thereby destroying it in the process; and the Raider is the only means they have at their disposal to get to Caprica and back. She also knows she’s dying, her VP has just had a meltdown in front of her and is in no way ready to take over government, and the most likely winner of a presidential election if she drops out of the race is a terrorist. Personally, I’m not surprised that she takes that straw of a vision and runs with it.

But that is all which she did. If you read some of the commentaries, you’d think Laura Roslin had just declared herself the BSG equivalent for Pope, complete with infallability doctrine, and started a theocracy. She did not tell Adama he was supposed to do was she said because of her visions; as I mentioned, she doesn’t mention the vision to him at all, she suggests a course of action instead, SUGGESTS, not orders. At no point does she position herself as a religious authority, either; she clearly treats the priestess Elosha as such. In the end, she risked one pilot, one military asset, and her working relationship with Adama to what she sees as the only way to save her people in the long term. Was she right to do so? Maybe not, maybe she was (that’s why we hear both Billy and Roslin herself on the subject), but she is actually far more considerate and rational than both Adamas were in You can’t go home again, when they risked the entire fleet, all ca. 50.000 lives, to rescue Starbuck, far beyond the point where there was even a sensible chance of doing so. (Note that it was of no good , too; in the end Starbuck rescued herself.) She’s also more honest about it. Adama hid behind “this is a military decion” then, and denied that this was all about emotion and family until Roslin shamed him and Lee out of it. Roslin does not claim that this is anything but what it is, a desperate gamble on faith.

“Follow your instinct” is what Adama advises his son to do in the teaser; in the two-parter, both Adama and Roslin follow their instincts. Adam will do this in the second part, and I don’t want to spoil anybody who hasn’t seen it yet as to what he does, so I’ll just say that to my mind, Moore showed both Adama and Roslin making mistakes, but both for understandable reasons. Still, even among those who saw both parts, Roslin gets the brunt of fannish hostility. Again, I can’t help but comparing this to the very different reception Rapture and Sisko’s behaviour got back in the day. Now I would blame the intervening years, 9/11 and the current President of the US causing one to be very wary of leaders who claim to be visionaries if one is of the liberal persuasion (which I am myself), except that I saw the anti-Roslin reaction from conservatives as well, so it can’t be that, or not that alone.

So… could it be gender? Because Sisko as the Emissary is not that different from other male Chosen Ones, prophets, etc. Him making the step from man of science to man of faith is revolutionary in the determinedly secular Star Trek context, but not when compared to a lot of other sci fi and fantasy. Usually these types are of the heroic persuasion. Female politicians, otoh, are a far more rare breed. And traditionally villainous. I was somewhat amused to read one lj (darchildre, I think) in which there was worry that Roslin would “go Kai Winn” on us. Because while Winn and Roslin are both pragmatists and female politicians, Winn’s problem and her tragedy was that her gods absolutely would not talk to her, not that they would. She was never asked to accept or reject a personal vision until the end, when it was a vision from the Pagh-Wraiths, and in any event, she believed from the start – there was no step from agnostic to believer nesessary. It was Sisko, the male hero, not Winn, who had to either trust or disregard personal visions from entities he had not at first regarded as gods.

If I have to guess: I think the Sisko parallel will hold in as much as what Kara will come back from Caprica with will provide the clue on how to find Earth, but it won’t necessarily be the literal arrow she was send to find, and Laura will still acknowledge she should have gone about the entire thing in a different way. (They might even extend the Sisko parallel as much as having the visions end by letting Billy destroy her chamalla supplies, which would parallel Sisko’s son Jake telling Bashir to operate on his father against his will.) Considering she won’t be the only one who will have to acknowledge having made a major mistake, the power balance between civilian and military leader will restore itself. But let’s put the laws of tv aside for a moment and assume the worst case scenario: Kara won’t come back from Caprica, meaning both the best pilot and the Cylon Raider are lost. In that case, I still wouldn’t consider Laura Roslin’s behaviour “insane” or driven by hubris. The same would hold as above; she should have gone about it in a different way, and should have questioned her instincts because of the problematic nature of the intel (i.e. visions via chamalla and old texts) more, but she would be no more or less responsible as she already is for the lives of the ships left behind in the miniseries, or of the Atlantic Carrier she ordered destroyed in 33, decisions which did pay off by saving the fleet. As Laura said to Lee in Water, leaders make mistakes, and it’s important for them to bear that responsibility and to face it. Sooner or later, she will be confronted by the lethal consequences of a decision of hers that does NOT pay off.

But, as with the other decisions, if this were to be the one, it would be one made for the same reasons that she ordered one ship destroyed and others left behind. Laura Roslin, like it or not, is a big picture kind of girl. Her big picture is the salvation of the human race. This makes her ruthless in some regards. It also makes her entirely capable of doing decidedly not-nice things like hitting Kara’s weak spot by shattering her trust in Adama, if this helps to accomplish her goal. But it does not make her insane.

Comments

[elz.livejournal.com]

Maybe not, maybe she was (that’s why we hear both Billy and Roslin herself on the subject), but she is actually far more considerate and rational than both Adamas were in You can’t go home again, when they risked the entire fleet, all ca. 50.000 lives, to rescue Starbuck, far beyond the point where there was even a sensible chance of doing so.

That's a good point; I suppose it's easier to sympathize with that choice when it's made under emotional duress than when it's made calmly and deliberately, with an awareness of the risks, but... it's better for a leader to approach things calmly, isn't it, rather than being blind to the consequences of what they're doing? And I don't doubt that Roslin made the decision she did because she believed it might work. If I blame her for anything, it's for playing Starbuck against Adama so cold-bloodedly, for damaging or destroying their personal relationship in the name of political expediency. I don't think it's the wrong choice, though, any more than her manipulation of her friend in Colonial Day was the wrong choice, or any more than the decision to execute Leoben in Flesh and Bone was the wrong choice. I'm just glad I don't ever have to be in a position to make those kinds of choices, which, admittedly, is a bit of a cop-out, because that's what people require of their leaders sometimes, and someone has to do it.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I suppose it's easier to sympathize with that choice when it's made under emotional duress than when it's made calmly and deliberately, with an awareness of the risks, but... it's better for a leader to approach things calmly, isn't it, rather than being blind to the consequences of what they're doing?

Well, I think so. Regarding the sympathy for choices - it ties back to our inherent belief that love for an individual justifies anything, I guess. Whereas the survival of the species is a more abstract ideal and harder to cheer for, especially since one automatically expects the species anyway, rules of tv and all. Well, we might know they'll trek on, pun intended, and probably will find Earth (or some other safe place) in the end, but Roslin doesn't, and she also knows that if she misses chances, she probably won't get any others.

Ron Moore in his commentary to Colonial Day summed it up with saying that Adama and Roslin are both idealists but she's the bigger pragmatic, "and if push comes to shove, Laura will shove you". Adama would not have left and they might have gotten all killed on the Starbuck rescue attempt, or shortly thereafter, considering all the expended fuel. Laura Roslin, even if it had been Billy whom I think she has started to love as a son? Would have left. And not because she lacks feeling.

I don't know whether you've read Rheanna's Five Things for Roslin; No.5, "Politician", exemplifies this trait of hers best, I think, because there she gives up what's left of her life in order to defeat Zarek, not because she wants to go out winning but because she thinks he'll doom the fleet if he gets to be President (and Adama agrees with her).

I'm just glad I don't ever have to be in a position to make those kinds of choices, which, admittedly, is a bit of a cop-out, because that's what people require of their leaders sometimes, and someone has to do it.

Oh, me too, and same here. I also love the show makes it clear what costs these choices have, such as letting us hear those ships left behind begging Roslin & Co. to stop until the very moment of the jump, or of course by having shown us how important the relationship between Adama and Kara is to both of them before showing us Roslin using the blind faith Kara had in Adama to get her on that mission.

[malograntum.livejournal.com]

I don't know whether you've read Rheanna's Five Things for Roslin

Ooh, where would one find that?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Here (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=rheanna27&keyword=BSG+Fic+-+Five+Deaths&filter=all).

[malograntum.livejournal.com]

Oh, rock on.

Also, this is a great essay. The DS9 comparison would never have occurred to me, but it makes a lot of sense. Thank you for posting.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

You're very welcome. Also, love the icon.

Sorry for butting in, but this one has been bugging me :)

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

If I blame her for anything, it's for playing Starbuck against Adama so cold-bloodedly, for damaging or destroying their personal relationship in the name of political expediency.

This is one of the accusations I see leveled against Roslin that I really don't get.

She goes to Adama, and he blows her off like she's an idiot. Won't even discuss it. And while the raider is a "military asset", there's also a major fleet policy issue at stake as well. This may be their only opportunity to find out if there's a kernal of truth in the legend that might tell where Earth is. There just might be other possible plans for destroying the basestar, but if they destroy the raider in the process, the option of fetching the arrow is gone forever.

Roslin is desperate. Adama won't talk to her. Hope is fading.

The only ship that can make the jump to Caprica is the raider. The only person who knows how to fly the raider is Starbuck. Who else could Roslin go to? If you read the dialog, Roslin does not jump to trashing Adama. That was not her agenda. She makes her case. Starbuck says, (paraphrase) "We don't need your stinking plan, the Old Man knows where it is, and will lead us there."

So what is Roslin supposed to say then? "Sure, never mind"--when she knows it's a lie?

Grace

Re: Sorry for butting in, but this one has been bugging me :)

[elz.livejournal.com]

This may be their only opportunity to find out if there's a kernal of truth in the legend that might tell where Earth is. There just might be other possible plans for destroying the basestar, but if they destroy the raider in the process, the option of fetching the arrow is gone forever.

Well, to play devil's advocate: I don't think this is their only chance. Every ship that's left in the fleet has an FTL drive - they might not be able to cover the entire distance in one jump, but they could certainly get back to Caprica. They know where Kobol is now, and there's no reason to think that the Arrow of Apollo is going anywhere. The raider makes it easier to get in undetected, but that's exactly why they wanted to use it to attack the basestar. There's an immediate threat to be dealt with and stranded personnel whose lives are at stake (including the Vice President and some valuable pilots and technical staff) - I think Adama dismisses her idea because he's giving these things precedence (and not without reason). The issue is urgent for Roslin because she knows that she's dying and she doesn't trust Baltar or Zarek to do what's best for the people. And maybe because she wants to be the prophecied leader who guides her people to the promised land. Who wouldn't leap at that kind of opportunity to give meaning to their own death?

My reservations about Starbuck were less about whether Roslin's decision was correct and more about what her position requires of her in general. Political power and empathy don't seem to mix too well, especially when the fate of humanity is at stake. To carry out her plan, Roslin needed Starbuck on her side, and she did what she needed to do to accomplish that. It's just unfortunate that what she needed to do involved manipulating Starbuck based on her religious beliefs and personal relationships. I don't think she was wrong to do it, but my gut reaction is still to recoil from that.

Re: Sorry for butting in, but this one has been bugging me :)

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

Well, to play devil's advocate: I don't think this is their only chance. Every ship that's left in the fleet has an FTL drive - they might not be able to cover the entire distance in one jump, but they could certainly get back to Caprica. They know where Kobol is now, and there's no reason to think that the Arrow of Apollo is going anywhere. The raider makes it easier to get in undetected, but that's exactly why they wanted to use it to attack the basestar. There's an immediate threat to be dealt with and stranded personnel whose lives are at stake (including the Vice President and some valuable pilots and technical staff) - I think Adama dismisses her idea because he's giving these things precedence (and not without reason).

And indeed, the arrow will do them no good unless they can get it to the temple on Kobol, so the basestar *has* to be dealt with. You do raise some valid possibilities here.

Honestly I don't think either of them performed at their best in that meeting. She didn't explain herself all that well, and he dismissed her concerns out of hand. It's a damn shame they don't trust each other enough to lay all the cards on the table, find the common ground they do have, and make it work. But then that's one of the major conflicts at the heart of the show. It's just so unfair when the nasty show writers manipulate our characters in ways that make them look bad :( ;)

It's just unfortunate that what she needed to do involved manipulating Starbuck based on her religious beliefs and personal relationships. I don't think she was wrong to do it, but my gut reaction is still to recoil from that.

Well, see, I didn't see it that way. She uses Starbuck's religious background as a kind of shorthand...I don't have to tell you what the scrolls say because you know...I don't have to convince you that they're true, because you believe it at least at some level.

As for manipulating Starbuck's relationship with Adama...let us not forget that he's the one who chose to lie--and imo, lie very cynically to take advantage of people's religious beliefs that he bluntly doesn't share (including, ahem, Starbuck's). That does not sit well with me at all, and if I were in the fleet, I would be pissed as hell. Which isn't to say that I don't love the guy :)--after all, I have him for my icon and can't stop writing stories about him ;)

Grace

[jo-lasalle.livejournal.com]

Wow. Great post.

I haven't seen too much hostility towards Roslin, but then I haven't been able to keep up with the post-KLG1 discussion over the weekend. I don't want to go all 'me, too' on this, but I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of her actions: she didn't do everything right, but she certainly wasn't without reason, either.

The DS9 comparison is interesting, and one I hadn't thought of. I don't know how Sisko was received back then, though for me, that turn of the story was one that didn't work for me and fell into my phase of falling out of love with the show. Whereas Roslin's approach to the whole thing made me not just stomach the storyline, but had me really interested.

This is a really excellent analysis of her and the decisions she's made over the first season, and I wish I had something more thoughtful to add, but since I don't, I'll just say thank you. :-) Great to read.

You're welcome

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Alas I wasn't online at the time DS9 was originally broadcast, save for the very last season (I did have internet access then), but if the published reactions were anything to go by, it was more on the lines of "wow, great turn for the character" then "now he's gone nuts". Mind you, much as I love DS9, I like Laura Roslin's approach better, too, but then Sisko was never my favourite character.

Funny thing about Sisko: In season 6, when he in the arguably best DS9 ep ever, In the Pale Moonlight, was pragmatic enough to team up with Garak and to cover for a murder Garak committed to get the Romulans to join the war effort, the immediate conclusion on the part of the published reviewers was that he had to die an heroic death to atone for this. Which he didn't, for the record. But it showed how entrenched viewer habits were as far as ruthlessness from non-villainous characters was concerned.

Re: You're welcome

[jo-lasalle.livejournal.com]

In season 6, when he in the arguably best DS9 ep ever, In the Pale Moonlight, was pragmatic enough to team up with Garak and to cover for a murder Garak committed to get the Romulans to join the war effort, the immediate conclusion on the part of the published reviewers was that he had to die an heroic death to atone for this.

That was one hell of an episode. I didn't see all that many of the later ones, but by some coincidence I caught that one, and it was good, in a freaked-me-out way.

I was a big fan of Sisko, so when the spirituality angle didn't work for me, it was a big deal. Which makes me wonder why I never made that connection, because there really is a strong parallel here.

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

She did not tell Adama he was supposed to do was she said because of her visions; as I mentioned, she doesn’t mention the vision to him at all, she suggests a course of action instead, SUGGESTS, not orders. At no point does she position herself as a religious authority, either; she clearly treats the priestess Elosha as such. In the end, she risked one pilot, one military asset, and her working relationship with Adama to what she sees as the only way to save her people in the long term.

I've been hard pressed to understand some of the reactions to Roslin myself, so I love having this opposing viewpoint.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

Thanks for posting this

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

It's very much what I've been thinking all weekend, but you've said it far more eloquently.

What are the odds of them finding a habitable planet using a random search pattern? Pretty much astronomical against them, I would think. They cannot carry on forever, so even a slim chance of finding Earth is worth some serious effort, imo.

Finding Kobol was a huge break, and legends often have a kernel of truth. I have no doubt RM is familiar with Schliemann/Troy story.

Totally fortuitously we've got the boxed set of the ST DS9 season you refer to (checked out from our public library no less!) so I've recently been reviewing those episodes.

I always liked the way DS9 handled the Bajoran faith. It wasn't necessary to accept that the wormhole aliens *were* gods in order to buy that they were important, and that what they had to say was significant and should be listened to.

Grace

Re: Thanks for posting this

[selenak.livejournal.com]

What are the odds of them finding a habitable planet using a random search pattern? Pretty much astronomical against them, I would think. They cannot carry on forever, so even a slim chance of finding Earth is worth some serious effort, imo.

Exactly. And it's not like they can either hang around Kobol for very long (Cylons!), or can count on another Cylon Raider dropping in their laps to be used for a Caprica trip.

I always liked the way DS9 handled the Bajoran faith. It wasn't necessary to accept that the wormhole aliens *were* gods in order to buy that they were important, and that what they had to say was significant and should be listened to.

My sole problem with the Prophets was that the last two seasons expected us to take them being good on faith, which is different from being significant and worth listening to, and that the moral ambiguity of some of their actions (such as essentially rape in what they did to Sisko's mother, hijacking her body against her will) was not acknowledged as such. But the Bajoran faith, otoh, was handled very well, and they didn't shirk from the obvious parallel/contrast to the Founders being worshipped as gods as well. (On the funny side, when Weyoun called the Bajorans a superstitious lot for believing the Prophets to be Gods, Damar asked "What about the Founders then?" and Weyoun replied: "That's different. The Founders are Gods. On the serious side when Odo talked with Kira about his experience with the defecting Weyoun who saw him as a God, and Kira made a direct comparison to her own faith in the Prophets.)

Which leads us somewhat away from BSG. Actually, the Schliemann/Troy comparison occured to me when hearing RM comment in the podcast on Laura approaching religion as a series of clues, a puzzle she has to solve. And then I thought of the GraecoRoman mythological background becoming increasingly important, and bingo, the Troy thought.

Re: Thanks for posting this

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

(On the funny side, when Weyoun called the Bajorans a superstitious lot for believing the Prophets to be Gods, Damar asked "What about the Founders then?" and Weyoun replied: "That's different. The Founders are Gods. On the serious side when Odo talked with Kira about his experience with the defecting Weyoun who saw him as a God, and Kira made a direct comparison to her own faith in the Prophets.)

Course the biggest difference between the two situations is that the Founders genetically engineered the Vorta and the Jem Hadar to view them as gods, while as far as we know the Prophets didn't deliberately seek to be worshiped by the Bajorans. Maybe the humans missed a big opportunity when they made the Cylons! LOL!

Grace

[kiaforrest.livejournal.com]

I still believe Laura was hoping when Starbuck asked Adama about the truth of Earth, she would be able to convincing Adama to give Laura a second hearing (speak to him as he understands sort of thing)and then the Old Man would come to or send for Laura & though he'd most likely be angry about her interference the dialog would again be 'on the table' & Adama would (hopefully) have a broader perspective or understanding based on conversation with Starbuck.

I think she made a major miscalculation about how Adama would react to her speaking about anything to any one of his people without his approval. He was clearly upset over Starbuck talking directly with Tigh instead of Adama concerning strategy against the basestar: but like you said, Roslin was caught up in the Raider moment and missed it.

This is about extinction. I think Adama gets that - I just think the maps of strategy focus him tightly and he forgets to look up to the broader picture just as she forgets to tighten her focus until prompted.

Well said!

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

I still believe Laura was hoping when Starbuck asked Adama about the truth of Earth, she would be able to convincing Adama to give Laura a second hearing (speak to him as he understands sort of thing)and then the Old Man would come to or send for Laura & though he'd most likely be angry about her interference the dialog would again be 'on the table' & Adama would (hopefully) have a broader perspective or understanding based on conversation with Starbuck.

You know, the more I think about this (and I really do have a life :O), the more I see your point.

I think one thing that tends to be forgotten is that Roslin doesn't really know Starbuck all that well. She knows Starbuck is close to both Adama's, she knows she was involved with Zak (but we don't know how much Tigh told her), she knows Starbuck is a hotshot pilot and has a gift for devising novel military strategy, and she also knows (presumably Roslin would have read the transcript of Starbuck's interrogation of Leoban) that Starbuck was at least raised fundamentalist.

BUT Roslin doesn't know a lot of things about Starbuck that we, the viewers, know. Roslin has no idea just how impulsive Starbuck really is. She doesn't know just how far Leoban burrowed under Starbuck's skin. She doesn't know that Starbuck frakked Baltar (out of pure self-loathing, imo) and she doesn't know about Starbuck's current crisis with Lee.

While "disobeying orders" and "crazy scheme" were mentioned, we didn't hear Roslin tell Starbuck to run off with the raider with no preliminaries. Would Roslin really have grounds for anticipating that that's *exactly* the way Starbuck would do it?

Grace

Bravo!

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

Great analysis. I particularly like this summary of the situation:

She also knows she’s dying, her VP has just had a meltdown in front of her and is in no way ready to take over government, and the most likely winner of a presidential election if she drops out of the race is a terrorist. Personally, I’m not surprised that she takes that straw of a vision and runs with it.

and the contrast to what Adama & Adama did to save Starbuck is dead on.
i'm only vaguely familiar with the outlines of DS9, but it is an interesting contrast. . .I wonder if it's something about the personalities of Sisko & Roslin as well as gender? I don't know DS9 well enough to speculate though

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

What are the odds of them finding a habitable planet using a random search pattern? Pretty much astronomical against them, I would think. They cannot carry on forever, so even a slim chance of finding Earth is worth some serious effort, imo.

Exactly. And it's not like they can either hang around Kobol for very long (Cylons!), or can count on another Cylon Raider dropping in their laps to be used for a Caprica trip.

Even if the arrow shows them the way to Earth, they're still left with one big problem: there are cylons in the fleet, and as long as they're not certain that they've all smoked them out, going to Earth could mean dooming another planet to destruction by the Cylons.

Anyway, one thing really bothered me in Roslin's decision: she reminded Kara that Leoben had predicted all this and had quoted "all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again". So the Cylons know their holy scriptures, they knew the fleet would find Kobol and were waiting for them there, and this doesn't seem to give her pause. If the cylons know all this, they also know about the arrow of Apollo and are probably expecting the humans to lead them to Earth. I would have been more reassured if I had seen Roslin take into account the presence of the Cylons at Kobol and the possibility that she's being played. I'm not saying the visions are not real. But there's a good chance that the cylons know about them and are counting on the President's visions to help them finish what they started in the miniseries.

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

If the cylons know all this, they also know about the arrow of Apollo and are probably expecting the humans to lead them to Earth.

Yes, I think that's exactly what the Cylons are up to, and you're right, she doesn't appear to have considered that aspect. But, you know, you could also ask what are his long term ideas about what they should do? He's reacting to one emergency after another with no apparent attention to the long term. Unfortunately Adama and Roslin never sat down together and discussed options/worked out a strategy. As far as I'm concerned they're both failing as leaders because of that. It's just irritating and kind of distressing to see so much dumping on *her* while excuses are made for everyone else's behavior.

That's my 2 cents, anyway ;)

Grace

[(Anonymous)]

It´s a really really interesting analysis. I´ve been reading KLG reviews for all the weekend and I had lost a little faith in Laura. I have a little more hope after this one. But I guess that´s why this is a real cliffhanger and these are reasons I love hte show so much for.

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

I'm coming from I guess the other direction here, since while I never had much use for Sisko's visions, it never occured to me to think badly of Roslin in this episode. And yes part of it is probably sexism - I must admit to being prejudiced in favor of mature women. But also I agree that Roslin handled everything much more rationally and sensibly than Sisko. Her visions, while perhaps her motivation, weren't her proof.

Also it's important to me that Roslin sought - and immediately received - the approval of the High Priestess (or whatever Elosha's appropriate title is - do we know? And, how far down the line of clerical sucesion was *she*? I have a feeling this is going to matter). Roslin's not acting as the sole judge and interpreter of her visions, but rather gets a spiritual reality check from a representative of her religious community. She's basing herself on the textual heritage and historical evidence of her culture, not just on her personal visions.

And that's the other big difference - it's her own religion that she's messing with. Even if she wasn't religious before, it was a religion that she had grown up with and had the same investment in as anyone else in that society.

As far as going around Adama - yes, it might have been better if she had gotten Adama to come around, I can also see how Roslin couldn't wait for that. And, wasn't it her right as President to make this kind of decision? The commander gets to decide what is done with millitary resources, but the President gets to decide what resources the millitary is allowed to have.

Since the beginning I've been wondering why they haven't descended into millitary dictatorship yet. I still think they're going to. And it wouldn't necessarily be a terrible decision from every perspective. If the most important thing is always immediate survival, and if the commander is the best one to decide how to ensure immediate survival, then the commander always takes precedence over the president and it's a millitary dictatorship. But as long as it's not, Roslin has a right to decide long-term strategy.

[labellamafia494.livejournal.com]

but she is actually far more considerate and rational than both Adamas were in You can’t go home again, when they risked the entire fleet, all ca. 50.000 lives, to rescue Starbuck, far beyond the point where there was even a sensible chance of doing so.
Thank you!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. It amazed me that this comparison never came up.

[lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this interesting analysis.

I've always felt that Commander Adama gets away with a lot on the show - the search for Starbuck being one example. I understood and empathised with why he did it, but it still struck me as an act of monumental stupidity and selfishness in many ways. (Particularly when the time ran out).

What I really don't understand is the 'she's evil for getting Starbuck to betray Adama' backlash. Starbuck's an adult. She was asked to do something by the President. She was asked to do something else by the Commander. She made her choice as an adult - Roslin neither threatened her nor forced her to do anything. I think more of Starbuck as a character than to think she's so weak that a five minute conversation about religion would get her to do anything she didn't want to. Is so easily manipulated as all that? I don't think so - it took Leoben quite a while to get to her.

I'm not that comfortable with the religious element of Roslin's story - I'm afraid of it ending in the assumption female = mysticism and irrationality, so it's interesting that Moore said she acted as she has done out of logic.

As for the 'how to go about getting Adama to give in', I don't think she explained herself very well to Adama. But neither did he show any sign that he'd consider her request. It was 'that's a military decision' and not much else.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

She made her choice as an adult - Roslin neither threatened her nor forced her to do anything. I think more of Starbuck as a character than to think she's so weak that a five minute conversation about religion would get her to do anything she didn't want to.

Yes. Mind you, I think Roslin knew that pulling the Adama-lied-card would work with Starbuck if nothing else did, but then again she wasn't the one who brought him up first. Starbuck did. And what was she supposed to say to "The Old Man will lead us to Earth!" when she really believed that the Caprica mission was vital?

But note that Roslin did NOT give Starbuck a direct order. Which she could have done, being Commander in Chief. She made her case. She did it with every rethorical skill at her disposal, but Starbuck still had all the choices. Kara could have simply ignored the request, and nothing would have happened. Kara could have told Adama. Kara had any number of choices. She chose to go.

I think the 'she's evil for getting Starbuck to betray Adama' backlash simply hails from the "we like character X and character Y and their relationship, and so if character Z causes an event that endangers it, Z must be evil, never mind Z's purpose or X' own responsibility" mechanism.

It was 'that's a military decision' and not much else.

And she has seen him use that justification for decisions which clearly weren't, like the one about searching for Starbuck. Incidentally, I watched the deleted scenes on the DVD, and there is a slightly longer version of the briefing in which it becomes clear, when Tigh mentions Starbuck's plan, that Roslin does not make her decision to go behind Adama's back until she hears that the Raider will be destroyed (and thus lost for good). I had that impression from the broadcast ep anyway, but it's nice to have backup. So it's not that Adama blows her off, and she immediately decides to get one of the pilots and the Raider; she still is prepared to wait. Until it's clear that if she doesn't act now, there won't be any more chance to get back to Caprica.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

I think the 'she's evil for getting Starbuck to betray Adama' backlash simply hails from the "we like character X and character Y and their relationship, and so if character Z causes an event that endangers it, Z must be evil, never mind Z's purpose or X' own responsibility" mechanism.

Yup! And I think that's Adama's logic too - "Starbuck would never be disloyal to me, but she's just been disloyal to me, so therefore she must have been coerced into it!"

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Which is why I loved Tigh's "nobody coerces Starbuck" reminder. He dislikes her, but he's not unfair about her, and sometimes sees her more objectively Adama can.

You know, all of this is making me wonder about Zak again. Because you have two examples of paternal behaviour patterns with Adama in his relationships with Starbuck and Apollo respectively - how was he towards Zak, who (if Lee is right about his motivations for wanting to become a pilot) wanted to please him as much as Kara does? Did Zak ever disagree with him on a serious issue? If so, how did Adama react and whom did he blame?

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Which is why I loved Tigh's "nobody coerces Starbuck" reminder. He dislikes her, but he's not unfair about her, and sometimes sees her more objectively Adama can.

Yeah, I have a whole other rant about how people are always saying Tigh's such an asshole, and he is a hardass, but there's a reason he's such good friends with Adama. I think he's a wonderful character who could have been such a caricature and wasn't.

You know, all of this is making me wonder about Zak again. Because you have two examples of paternal behaviour patterns with Adama in his relationships with Starbuck and Apollo respectively - how was he towards Zak, who (if Lee is right about his motivations for wanting to become a pilot) wanted to please him as much as Kara does? Did Zak ever disagree with him on a serious issue? If so, how did Adama react and whom did he blame?

I wonder if we'll get more Zak backstory next season ... So far, he seems like a nice fun boy, whom everyone liked and who was kind of eager to please people he loved, especially his father. And I don't get the sense that there was ever this deep bedrock opposition to being Bill Adama Jr. that Lee seems to have, even though on the surface, he's got the ability that Zak lacked to be like his father (namely that he is, in contrast to Zak, a really good pilot!)

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Thanks to elz, I found your latest post, and then this one, and I hope you don't mind if I friend you - because I loved it (particularly your comparison to Schliemann and Troy ;))

I think Roslin's making a huge mistake in trusting to her visions, by the way, because I think it's no coincidence that they start happening when they find Leoben the Cylon - and I think she made a big mistake in not at least thinking about the implications of the fact that the Cylon base star shows up at Kobol JUST as the Colonial fleet finds it. I should have thought she might wonder at the coincidence - perhaps hesitate, thinking, "hmmmm, I wonder if the Cylons know the same prophecies that we do?" Or something.

She's still one of my absolutely favorite characters though - and like you, I'm a bit befuddled by reactions to KLG2 along the lines of "Adama's right to remove her from office" - at worst, all she did was make a bad judgement call and she didn't even ORDER STarbuck to fly off in the Raider (that's Adama-logic, to assume that someone as strong and as wilful as Starbuck has shown herself to be, would be coerced into obeying a woman whom she doesn't apparently like very much and whose plan she called crazy. And she's completely not responsible for the way the relationship between Adama and Starbuck went sour - Why not blame Adama for his lying to Starbuck, or Starbuck for not clarifying with Adama WHY he lied?)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

On the contrary, I feel flattered.

Roslin making a mistake in not taking into account that the Cylons might be manipulating her visions: that's a strong possibility, though one can argue that there are elements in her visions which the Cylons couldn't have set up; for example, while they could have somehow guided the fleet to the base Lee takes out for them to find fuel, there was no way they could have arranged for it so that exactly twelve Vipers are engaged in the final assault. Leoben being sucked into vaccum was entirely depending on Roslin; she could have ordered just to shoot him and put him into cyrogenic suspension, as it happened with the first Leoben. Etc.

There is, of course, always the outside possibility Leoben wasn't lying when claiming he could see the future. I.e. that the Cylons have some limited precognitive abilities. Which would negate everything I said before.*g*

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Roslin making a mistake in not taking into account that the Cylons might be manipulating her visions

I think that's the Cylons' Achilles heel or something - that they can manipulate events to a point (I don't think they are manipulating her visions, just that they too are well aware of the prophecies, and that Leoben was sent to put a lot of seeds of doubt - in Adama - and confidence in her own visions into her head) but they cannot predict how the humans will react to those events.

I just don't want the prophecy to be as straightforward as it seems right now, is all - I will feel cheated!