Speculative comment/question on BSG

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

Concerning Kara Thrace and the men in her life - no spoilers past 'Colonial Day.'

Okay, trying to suss out the influences on Kara's life, and who she was and who she is becoming. What I really want to know is not exactly about Kara, but about Zack, and what she saw in Zack.

(The last thing I want to do here is get into a bashing contest on any of the characters. Let's take as given that all characters have their flaws and virtues, and accept that Kara really loved Zack.)

Lee, as we have seen already, is just a bit tightly wound, and tightly reserved. Someone else made the observation that (esp compared to Kara) Lee is a prude. Or - inhibited enough by his (new) command position and (on-going) position as the son of the great William Adama so that tumbling into the rack with any gal who walked by is just not in the cards. I tend to think that if their positions were reversed that Lee would not have put the moves on a superior officer/training instructor, even if he felt deeply for her.

(I'm going to default to him/her and het relationships. If, for the purposes of this discussion, it pleases the reader to assume the possibility of a same-sex relationship in this universe for Kara or Lee or, hell, Col Tigh - feel free.)

We've had a hint that Zack took after his father a bit more than Lee did, but also a broader indication that Lee and Kara are friends from way back.

So what I'm wondering what was the difference, that made a spark between Kara and Zach but not Lee and Kara?

Lee is (obviously at this point) a highly gifted pilot, if a far more cerebral one than Starbuck (or his father?) I think it's possible that Zack inherited the attitude but not the skills to back it up. Or that Zack (as younger sons sometimes do) faced less scrutiny growing up, and so was more self-confident than his older brother. I could certainly see a cocky young pilot propositioning his flight instructor on a bet, or just to try his luck.

On the other hand, it could be that Kara was the aggressor, even though that kind of unprofessional behavior - oh, what the hell am I saying? This is Kara Thrace, born to not toe the line. It probably *was* her, and quite possibly after she got a wave-off from Lee. (Or maybe not the instant "Sure, how bout right now?" that she was expecting in response to her "Hey, good-looking, wanna frack?") So little brother comes along, with much of what she likes about Lee, but hey! A bit more aggressive, if sloppy around the edges. And willing to take her up on the offer.

And then, of course, there maybe no telling what made her go from thinking "hot stick, fun frack" to "I want to spend the rest of my life married to this man." Love is strange.

Of course, I have *completely* let alone the relationship between Kara and Adama, and Kara and Tigh. I'm pretty sure both are strongly affected by the aftermath of Zack's death, but I feel pretty confident that neither is (much) a romantic/friendship relationship - in other words, the niches Lee and Zack fill/filled in Kara's life are very different than those filled by Adama or Tigh, while Lee's and Zack's positions re: Kara are similar.

Your thoughts?

Update - via kerlin, there was a discussion of the same topic a few weeks back in another lj. No spoilers after "Colonial Day", but watch the comments, as more could have been added. (Downloaders. I swear. *shakes head*)

Update to update - comments [in the discussion linked above] do have spoilers for the whole season thus far. (not huge, more character building than plot, if that makes a diff. Frack.) (edited for clarification

Comments

[schwester655.livejournal.com]

So what I'm wondering what was the difference, that made a spark between Kara and Zach but not Lee and Kara?

I’ve been thinking that Kara and Lee were initially attracted to each other, either when they met or shortly thereafter (they may even have started a relationship, though I doubt it got very far). But then she got scared off. Lee seems to understand her—knows how to push her, and how to push her buttons. Lee sees her failings, and has been willing to call her on her bullshit. Kara probably would have seen Zack as much less complicated and less demanding (which may be due to birth order and the parental expectations that come with that), while Lee was more intense. Zack loved her in spite of her shortcomings (something to ignore)—a sort of hero-worship. (Not that I’m suggesting she only loved Zack because he worshiped her.) Zac just seemed (perhaps subconsciously) easier. Maybe Zack was Lee without the baggage, without the emotional barriers?

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

Huh. Good thoughts, here.

Kara probably would have seen Zack as much less complicated and less demanding

I think this could be very valid. I think unconditional (or near unconditional) love/worship is damn attractive. And I think that the kind of friendship/love that pushes you to be better/different than you are is hard. So I agree that Kara might have preferred the one over the other.

- hg

[zorb]

I think we have to keep in mind that all of them were different people before Zak's death. Younger!Kara and Younger!Lee just might not have clicked that way, while Y!Kara and Zak did.

[schwester655.livejournal.com]

You're right that they were different people before Zack's accident, but that may have more to do with why there's more of a possiblity for a relationship between Lee and Kara now than with their attraction or lack thereof. That seems like an awful lot of spark to have suddenly appeared after two years of not seeing each other preceded by what was probably a very hurtful argument.

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

That seems like an awful lot of spark to have suddenly appeared after two years of not seeing each other preceded by what was probably a very hurtful argument.

I didn't get the impression that there was so much anger between Kara and Lee. More of a...convenient non-communication. If they had not physically moved apart, I think they would have kept their old ways of interacting. (I didn't get the impression that Lee was assigned to instructor duty - he was probably in a different but local unit? I think?)

In contrast, Lee and Adama definately had a falling out.

In both cases, I think, enough time has passed that Lee is making *new* relationships rather than simply renewing old ones.

- hg

[schwester655.livejournal.com]

I didn't get the impression that there was so much anger between Kara and Lee. More of a...convenient non-communication.

There may not have been a lot of anger, per se, but re-watching the scene in the brig from the mini, I feel like they definitely had some sort of confrontation around the time of the funeral, possibly about the way Lee was treating his father (especially since Lee was blaming his father for Zack's death and Kara knew she should share some of that blame). Their conversation feels like ground they've already been over: "Kara, don't even start." "How long you gonna do this?" "Same old Lee. You haven't changed either." I get the feeling this is an old argument, or perhaps one they postponed.

So I think whatever they might have between them now, it's influenced by their past relationship, though the flavor of it might have changed. At the end of that scene, after she says she's "getting the urge to hit another superior asshole", Lee gives her this great, smiley look that's totally out of place for the whole argument that seems to say "That's the way it's going to be because that's the way it always goes, and I really want to smack you because you drive me crazy, but I'm glad you haven't changed that much." Or something like that.

Ok, that made more sense in my head, I swear.

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

You are right about that scene, I think.

Postponed, I think. Or else, having spent the last two years with Adama, Kara has even less patience with Lee's attitude towards his father, on top of her knowledge that the blame is mislaid. (Am I making sense? At the time of the accident/funeral, Kara knew that Lee was blaming Adama for something that wasn't Adama's fault. But *now* Lee's blaming the man she's come to respect, the man that treats her like a daughter. So it's even more complicated.)

Which would go with the tension we saw in SB that wasn't in Lee in this scene - I think SB has changed a lot more in the last few years than Lee had. And what's new is her relationship with Adama. Lee's been angry at his father his whole life, so there's not much new there.

Umm. This sound at all plausible to you?

- hg

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

I'll buy that people change as they get older. Just for the sake of thinking about it, what sort of people do you think the younger versions were, and how were they different than before?

- hossgal

[zorb]

Actually, widget285's recent fic was pretty close to my interpretation of their younger selves. I think both Lee and Kara were very career-driven at that point - in the Academy, time of peace, world is their oyster and all that. Neither of them were looking for romance. Lee, especially, hadn't had the pain of losing a loved one to make him look more closely at and value what he had. (Kara, too - we'd need to know more about her childhood to be more certain, though.)

They didn't have the fate of humanity riding on their shoulders; they weren't as grown up. In a nutshell, I see them as being more idealistic back then - and it seems like Zak, with his pursuit of a profession that he wasn't really suited for, embodied that idealism most perfectly of the three. I think Kara would have been drawn to that, particularly given her childhood.

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

Title of the fic? (link?)

Interesting thoughts - I like this image of Zack as the dreamer, especially compared to Lee, who likely over thought things back then, too.

- hg

[zorb]

Link. :-)

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

Thank you muchly!

I won't discuss the fic plot so much here (I did like it). But thank you for the link!

- hg

[bantha-fodder.livejournal.com]

I think it's possible that Zack inherited the attitude but not the skills to back it up. Or that Zack (as younger sons sometimes do) faced less scrutiny growing up, and so was more self-confident than his older brother.

Those scenes in Act of Contrition implied to me that Zak was unsure that he deserved his pass mark, and so was calling Kara on it. Which makes me think that he didn't have the attitude.

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

Someone on my flist and I were talking about the outer shell of a fighter pilot covering any real self-doubt. So I'm willing to think that maybe Zack would have shown Kara a side of him that 1) he thought she already saw and 2) that he wouldn't show anyone else.

Those scenes did show a Zack that was not (I think) that different than the public Lee that we see now. So I'm still thinking there was something else that drew her to Zack.

This might be a fruitless exercise, but I'm having fun with it anyway.

- hg

[spudzilla.livejournal.com]

I'd be hesitant to say that she went for Zak instead of Lee cause Lee blew her off only because it seems to trivialize her and Zak's relationship, and I think from what we've seen, she really and truely did love Zak.

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

I don't mean to trivialize the emotion between Kara and Zack at all. I think you're right about the depth of her commitment to him - I don't think her despondency over Zack was entirely guilt.

I do think, though, that that sort of deep emotion isn't there in a relationship from the beginning. I think that romances tend to start a bit more shallowly, and deepen as time goes on. What I'm trying to figure out is why that relationship had a chance to deepen with Zak and not with Lee.

- hg

[paraxdisepink.livejournal.com]

Hmm Maybe it wasn't a big thing. I'm sure Lee and Kara have been attracted to each other for a while, but maybe Kara was more of a party girl when she was younger and maybe Zack was more of a party guy. The very serious Lee (I assume he was always serious) just isn't going to seem like a very fun match so maybe she wasn't interested in actively pursuing the attraction. :)

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

That could very well be. (I think Lee was always serious, too. Neighbors of mine growing up included a much older man that everyone called "Judge". Because he was so serious. Trouble was, he'd been tagged with that name when he was about five, and kept it all his life. Never grew out of it. *g*)

And I don't see Kara putting a great deal of effort into someone who didn't want to play.

- hg

[leda13.livejournal.com]

mmm I love these kinds of discussions.

I think Kara is very driven to be the best at something; we know she was a Pyramid player on a scholarship until injury put a stop to that, and she kind of fell into piloting. I actually see her as being a pretty damn good student on the theoretical side too simply because having the great grades would get her wings that much faster. But because of her upbringing (mostly inferred, though) I think there's a severe lack of confidence with other people. She connects best with people that share her skills: other pilots.

That's probably where I see her relationship with Lee beginning. He's a good pilot, and even if they weren't in the same class or rank or anything, I think they both would be looking for worthy competition. Lee and Kara would push each other, compete. Lee's competetive with everyone (especially dad) and the rivalry that he and Kara could develop would be a great boost to both of them, a goad to their ambitions.

Where Zak comes in is that Lee is all about his career to prove himself to everyone, where Kara is simply finding a place to be the best, a comfortable niche where nothing gets close. The attraction she and Lee have for each other is probably sabotaged by her casual flings and his seriousness before it gets off the ground. But Zak, who is following his father and brother into the only career that's worthwhile, is probably not hugely driven to be the best, just to live up to the standard and earn his wings.

I think that as Lee's brother, Kara gets to know and get close to Zak, but eventually falls for him because he is willing to accept whatever she has to offer, unlike Lee who is a deep-thinking, analysing type. Given her past, I'd even postulate that Lee's emotions are something that scare Kara pretty deeply, so maintaining their friendship while being involved with Zak would probably give Kara everything she needed: competition and acceptance.

I could be pissed at Lee for letting her get away with keeping him at arm's length; I can only guess that she did the casual relationship thing with other people often enough, and at hurtful enough moments, to really fuck with his confidence.

Eek, ramble. Sorry!

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

No, no, ramble is good. I like what you've said here.

(Man, we're just chewing this to peices, aren't we? But I think it's important - we've seen what loosing Zack did to Kara, and I wonder what having him meant to her.)

I could see Lee only letting Kara 'get to him' on the flying level, and choosing himself to not open up too much to her rather...chaotic nature. And yeah, if Lee wasn't the type to do casual, the thought of being another of Kara's casuals might have not appealed.

- hossgal