Occupation/Precipice

[fangaili.livejournal.com]

So what did everyone think?



I've been wondering: what did Starbuck use to kill Leoben (the first time)? It looked like an ice pick, but with 2 prongs.

Doesn't Leoben know that Starbuck is married? Wouldn't trying to seduce her mean he's trying to lead her to sin (adultery)?

D'anna calls Baltar's Six "Caprica" -- interesting touch.

Ellen may have some redeeming qualities after all. She obviously does not enjoy whoring herself out to the Cylons, but she does it to get her husband back. She is misguided into thinking that she can trust the Cylons to do anything, and it looked like she's going to betray them in order to save Tigh from being taken away.

Kat as CAG, Helo as XO - cool. It's weird that everyone is so out of their element though. The show has really gone in a strange direction. The writers and producers have taken a big chance on this. Now, I stay away from spoilerage, but I have heard that maybe they only stay on New Caprica for a few more episodes--by which time we would return everyone to their usual positions on Galactica (Starbuck in the cockpit, Chief on the deck, etc.), but the interpersonal relationships would still be all different.

It was nice to see the president's aide again. I like her.

Why does Baltar back out of the graduation ceremony? Did someone tip him off?

Isn't their whole "secret code" a little transparent? Wouldn't the Cylons be watching Gaeta's every move? Why couldn't they just check the drawer instead of watching for the upside-down food dish? Does anyone ever feed that poor dog? :)

If the Cylons really do think that the holocaust was a mistake, why don't they just leave the remaining humans alone? Why all the heavy-handed tactics (curfews, centuriouns)? Is it because they think they need to "convert" them to monotheism? Why the strong desire to "work together" and build some brave new world? They Cylons really are bizzare creatures--they are so religious and yet they killed billions of people, think it's ok to torture people, think it's ok to steal Starbuck's ovary, etc, etc. When you get down to it they're even more screwed up than the humans.

Comments

[solarbird]

I've been wondering: what did Starbuck use to kill Leoben (the first time)? It looked like an ice pick, but with 2 prongs.
I was thinking it looked like a giant tuning fork. So I was all, "Hey, Leoben, take a NOTE - I don't LIKE you" and stuff because ha HA - punishment!

Isn't their whole "secret code" a little transparent?
spazzkat said it's kind of a riff on a movie I haven't seen called Stalag 17 about Allied prisoners of war in a German P.O.W. camp.

They Cylons really are bizzare creatures--they are so religious and yet they killed billions of people, think it's ok to torture people [etc]
"And yet"? The history of religion consists in large part of the use of religion specifically to justify these things because you are acting for god(s). Once you have "absolute truth" on your side, you can justify anything.

[sui-generis.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

Spanish Inquisition, anyone?

Salem Witch Trials?

Crusades?

[solarbird]

Mostly yes, but to be fair, the initial Crusades in particular had a lot more to do with war politics than religion - tho' in that era, in those cultures, there wasn't necessarily all that much difference between the two. The expanding empires of the southern Mediterranean coasts and middle east had made a lot of headway towards (and into) Europe, and while the various European armies and involved nations certainly had Papal blessing and encouragement, the opposite side generally had the same sorts of blessings. Then everybody has "god on their side" and nobody behaves well.

I'm not sure what my point is except that the Crusade terminology has come to mean essentially that one side was bad in behaviour and started it (European) and the otherside was peaceful and didn't do anything (Arabic/Persian/etc; all the middle easterners) which is, well, entirely not true. So I dislike/avoid the term as example. La la la.

[ex-darshan119.livejournal.com]

Yeah, religious people are never known for torture and killing people. Reminds one of all those crusades led in the name of atheism and agnosticism.

[fangaili.livejournal.com]

I'm not talking about real life here, just about the Cylons' declared beliefs.

[conuly]

But they go hand-in-hand! Real life people have similar "declared beliefs", and sometimes that leads them to go out and kill people. I'm not sure how that happens, but it does, and with depressing frequency and regularity.

Sure, this is fiction, but it's meant to be somewhat realistic. In order for us to believe the Cylons as real beings with real motives, and to care about what they do in any way, they have to act in a realistic manner. Which means having stated beliefs which are in conflict with their actions - and having nifty rationalizations for those actions, as well.

[cyclotron.livejournal.com]

I think you need to read up on the Crusades. They were a _response_ Muslim killing of Christians.

[ex-darshan119.livejournal.com]

Who mentioned Christians? Did Christians kill somebody?

As long as you are handing out information, what was the Spanish Inquisition in response to?


"When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

--J. Krishnamurti

[nicwhite86.livejournal.com]

This is relevant to this thread how?

[rhi-silverflame.livejournal.com]

Ellen may have some redeeming qualities after all. She obviously does not enjoy whoring herself out to the Cylons, but she does it to get her husband back.

Her facial expressions after frakking Cavil just killed me.

[djfanboy.livejournal.com]

If the Cylons really do think that the holocaust was a mistake

I think that subject HASN'T been closed as far as some of the Skin Jobs are concerned; I think it's been pushed by the Heroes of the Cylons (i.e., Boomer and Caprica Six) and gained ground with a majority of the Cylon populace. Like Brother Cavill said to Adama and Roslin back in part two of last year's finale.

*I* think. :)

[sarmoti.livejournal.com]

Starbuck killed Leoben with a pair of chopsticks. Metal ones, I think. RDM refers to them as chopsticks on the podcast.

Why couldn't they just check the drawer instead of watching for the upside-down food dish?
I wondered the same thing! But only thought is that they since both the informant and the resistance fighter want/need to remain anonymous, they can't risk running into each other at the drop-off site. Though....couldn't they just as easily run into each other at the dog bowl? Eh, *handwave*

[djfanboy.livejournal.com]

Anyone else having problems downloading the podcast? Every time I try I get a 404 sci fi page. :(

I WANT PODCAST!

[sarmoti.livejournal.com]

I had a hard time getting a hold of it too, but I finally found this link: http://galacticastation.com/episodes/podcast/SE3/301.htm

WARNING: That page lists the episode titles of the next 12 or so episodes, which you may or may not consider spoilers. I shielded my eyes as I made the necessary clicks to download the podcast, but maybe you're a spoiler lover and wouldn't mind that. :)

[djfanboy.livejournal.com]

thanks! :)

[djfanboy.livejournal.com]

assuming that's a dog...

(can of qagh, meet can opener.)

[solarbird]

Why couldn't they just check the drawer instead of watching for the upside-down food dish?
Because stopping to pet a dog every single day is a lot less suspicious-looking than checking an abandoned filing cabinet every single day.

[tok-ra.livejournal.com]

If the Cylons really do think that the holocaust was a mistake, why don't they just leave the remaining humans alone? Why all the heavy-handed tactics (curfews, centuriouns)? Is it because they think they need to "convert" them to monotheism? Why the strong desire to "work together" and build some brave new world?

I really think this is the result of a sort of mashing-up of mixed ideals... Six and Boomer were the ones driving the whole "the holocaust was a mistake" thing, while others like Cavil think they need to control the humans... in the end, no one gets their way and the cylons' unity suffers (as does humanity).

[lizzibee.livejournal.com]

"If the Cylons really do think that the holocaust was a mistake, why don't they just leave the remaining humans alone?"

In a previous Helo and Sharon episode, they mentioned that the Cyclons believe that they need to be fruitful and multiply. But I believe that they said Cyclons can't reproduce with one another, and that they can only reproduce with humans if they love one another.

Also, I don't buy that the kid is Starbuck's, I think it is a cheap ploy because of the previous mention about the emphasis on love, and it is obvious that Leoben is trying to make her love him. I'm assuming it is so they can produce offspring.

Did anyone else notice Leoben is the only Cylon missing from the group votes?

Also, I found it funny that the Laura Rosaline's aide was still around. That is certainly dedication. I dunno, I haven't warmed up to her. She's NO BILLY.

[kirinqueen.livejournal.com]

I haven't warmed up to her. She's NO BILLY.

iawtc

I think Starbuck is pretending to be manipulated with the whole Casey-is-my-baby thing. I just don't buy that she's suddenly going to care about Leoben because she was careless about this little girl he left her with.

[conuly]

But I believe that they said Cyclons can't reproduce with one another, and that they can only reproduce with humans if they love one another.

No, the love = babies hypothesis was just one method of making babies they were working with. Baby farms were another one.

Did anyone else notice Leoben is the only Cylon missing from the group votes?

No he's not. He's the only human-form cylon that we know who is missing, but we still haven't seen all 12 forms.

[cyclotron.livejournal.com]

I thought there were supposed to be 12 models of skins. We havent seen them all. Lucy Lawless is also missing from votes and I think one more male.

[llachglin.livejournal.com]

The Cylons have mixed motives, just like any complex society. Most wars and military occupations are similarly conflicted and don't make logical sense until you realize that groups of people are working at cross-purposes, rendering the entire situation senseless. I really think this is just the moral ambiguity of war, and I'm glad that the writers for this show are willing to go there. I would be bored of any show where the motives were straightforward, the cylons wore the black hats, and the humans were the heroes.

[conuly]

Doesn't Leoben know that Starbuck is married? Wouldn't trying to seduce her mean he's trying to lead her to sin (adultery)?

1. He may consider the marriage invalid because they belong together, or because it wasn't done in the eyes of God, or because it's inconvenient to him.

2. He may not consider adultury a sin.

Why all the heavy-handed tactics (curfews, centuriouns)?

Because they're being attacked on every hand when down on the planet. For them, this is just an inconvenience, but that doesn't mean they enjoy it.

Plus, having decided on this human/cylon society, they're determined to *get* a human/cylon society. If they had any idea how humans think and function, they might be able to make a go of it. As it is, it seems they're throwing out tactics on the theory that some of them have to work.

[cyclotron.livejournal.com]

I find it kinda offensive that the wirtters made the chaplin as the most violent and hateful cyclon.


I guess this means that Roslin, her aide and Hatch are all dead? I was hoping that they were going to set them free or transport them off world. That would have been an interesting spin. It almost seemed as if the centuriouns were going to kill the human police.

I see a lot of ties to the US wars in the middle east and the middle east conflict in general.

I also find the the treatment of humans as a contradiction. I know it will end the story faster, but the skins should just kill Tigh and then the suicide killings would stop.

[conuly]

The atheist chaplain. So he's offensive on all sides. Gah.

[nicwhite86.livejournal.com]

How's it offensive? The chaplin thing was just his cover, a convenience that is no longer necessary.

They're in the previews, so I assume they find some way of surviving. Zarek looked like he had a bit of a plan at the end there, they probably hide under the bodies or something, Jewish concentration camp style.

It's part of a more complex strategy. They know how Tigh works, so they are happy to let him be the one in charge. They are banking on the resistance tactics being percieved as more and more reprehensible and the whole movement being discredited - hence the "one day your people will treat you as heroes" comment. They can also use him as leverage with Ellen.

[thomascrown.livejournal.com]

"Isn't their whole "secret code" a little transparent? Wouldn't the Cylons be watching Gaeta's every move? Why couldn't they just check the drawer instead of watching for the upside-down food dish? Does anyone ever feed that poor dog? :)"

>> Although the particulars are pretty obvious, the technique they are using to communicate with one and other is called a "dead drop". It's a time honored & very effective way to send messages in the world of intelligence (though in real life it is MUCH more subtle). I think the poor technique is just for the audience's benefit, so we can see what's going on.

[sannalim.livejournal.com]

What a jaw-dropper this episode was!

My favourite moment, hands-down, was Adama swearing Sharon back into the fleet as "Sharon Agathon". Hooray for Adama finally letting her out of the jail cell (she's been in there what, two years?, by now) AND letting her actually marry Helo!

I'm continually impressed by the way Sharon has become Adama's conscience--how he uses her as a sounding board when he's upset about something, and how he listens to what she tells him and changes his attitude or plans or behaviour.

I also really enjoyed the scene when Roslin is in detention and Baltar challenges her to say that she approves of the suicide-bombing, and she can't... and then she goes back and tells off Tigh.

Speaking of Baltar, while I have at times disliked him quite a bit, I kind of like him in spite of myself. He's an amazing character. This episode really showed a lot of depth in him... he might be moving up in the list, from the "least liked" end towards the "most liked" end.

The guy on the "least liked" end of the list is definitely the Cavil cylon. I find his attitude towards religion the most profoundly disturbing in the whole show, and I think his abuse of Ellen is horrid. Ellen may have gotten into that situation voluntarily, but Cavil's use of her is still ABuse. Poor Ellen! It's clear that she's absolutely desperate, and that she's not getting any pleasure out of her relations with Cavil. While Ellen getting pregnant by Cavil is a logical direction for the show to go, it's a direction that I certainly hope it DOESN'T go. There's too many babies already. :P

And regarding babies... Shouldn't Kasey and Hera/Isis be about the same age? Considering its premature birth, Sharon's child ought to be, developmentally, about the same as a one-year-old at the time of the S2 finale. The baby shown looked more like a six- or nine- month-old. If the Kasey child was "conceived" following "The Farm", she should have been born a month or so after Hera's due date, and should, at the time of the S3 premiere, be about 16 months old (if I've calculated correctly). The Kasey we saw looked more like a two-year-old to me.

Finally, it was nice to see Zarek again, and I'm anxious to see how he and Roslin survive.

[solarbird]

be about 16 months old (if I've calculated correctly)
In late S2, we skipped from the beginning of the Presidential campaign straight to almost the end, where Baltar is losing badly and needs a miracle to pull out an electoral victory. Did you include that time? That might add a few months.