Battlestar Galactica: Colonial Day

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

I had meant to write up a long, mythology-laden post in response to Hand of God, but fatigue and real life intervened before I could. Suffice it to say that I am fascinated by the way the show is integrating elements of Greek mythology, and really want to see where it ends up. Also, very cool plan to claim the tyllium deposits, what with Lee channeling the spirit of Luke Skywalker/Starbuck and the attendant angst. There shall be more about oracles before this post is done.

I feel rather smug, because my analysis of Baltar and Ellen Tigh after Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down was born out in this episode. Power-hungry, the both of them, with little thought given to whom they might hurt by their self-absorption and quests for attention.

The Quorum of Twelve

We open aboard the Cloud Nine luxury liner, seeing a facsimile of open sky for the first time amid the fleet. Talk wireless commentators set the scene: President Roslin will reconvene the Quorum of Twelve, with every colony sending a representative. It’s the beginning of a return to the principles of government set forth in the Articles of Colonization, which we learn were only signed fifty-two years ago. That revelation puts a different spin on Colonial society; rather than an established entity like the United States today, they were perhaps more akin to the European Union. I’m imagining some devastating war about a century ago that prompted the colonies to begin the long trek towards peace and cooperation. Fifty years or so of slowly growing inter-colonial institutions sounds about right, with the Articles of Colonization being the culmination of their alliance.

If the colonies’ unification was only fifty-two years ago, they also faced a harsh challenge almost immediately, since we’ve been told the Cylon Wars took place forty years ago. Were the Cylons created to fight the wars, and then rebelled once they were no longer used as their human masters intended? Were the Cylons created to provide cheap labor? I’d love to know more. I can only imagine that the Cylon Wars were the crucible of the new government, one that tested its strength and ultimately resulted in proof of the resilience of the new institutions.

Of course, President Roslin faces the greatest challenge of all time in her quest to ensure the survival of the human race after the Cylon armageddon. The issue of retaining traditional governmental and economic structures or turning to a new vision of the future where “the group” is the arbiter of decisions is raised by Tom Zarek, the terrorist (or freedom fighter) introduced in Bastille Day. He’s been elected as Sagittaria’s representative to the Quorum, putting the lie to any assumption that Roslin was orchestrating the meeting to rubberstamp her leadership.

Roslin has to navigate the shoals of public opinion and political elections when Zarek proposes that the Quorum’s first order of business is to elect a new vice-president and ensure legitimate succession of authority in the case of Roslin’s death. It’s not a bad point, but Zarek raises it in a bid to take the office of Vice President for himself, positioning for the eventual presidential elections in six months. Roslin’s first choice for her candidate, Wallace Gray, reveals himself to be a boring bureaucrat during his speeches to the Quorum. In one of the few instances of a character appearing out of the blue, “Wallie” is greeted warmly by Roslin and the audience is told that he’s been helping to manage the fleet all this time. Where was he during Water, then? Even a mention would have made me feel less like he materialized into the fleet from thin air.

When Adama hears of Zarek’s new seat on the Quorum, he calls the President immediately and offers to restrict Zarek’s movements. His distrust of the man is strong, which might reflect a personal animosity from the bruises on Lee’s face after Bastille Day. But Roslin says that they can’t make Zarek a martyr for the discontented. They need to let this situation play out.

After Zarek appears to be gaining in the race, Roslin turns to Baltar, who can speak eloquently and loves the limelight. He’s also been touted as the rescuing angel of the fleet time and again, so his popularity would be high. Baltar also expresses the need to trust in the traditions that have served them well so far, a position Roslin finds much more palatable than Zarek’s. Baltar’s words are balm to her wounded soul: he says that the fleet “must survive, will survive on values that have made our colonies great.” The show has done a fabulous job at establishing the scarcity of resources, both physical and personnel, which makes Roslin’s decision easier to understand. She knows Baltar is close to insane, but he still manages to get the job done. And in her experience, he can be managed. The need to convince Wallace Gray (that “pompous gasbag” according to the press) to drop out of the race allows him to comment that Roslin is just as backstabbing as any politician.

My view on Roslin’s actions is that her cancer has narrowed her focus to one thing: survival of the fleet. This goal even overrides personal survival, but she’s made enough difficult decisions since she took the oath of office that she’s learned to disregard certain unpleasant consequences. She doesn’t have the energy to devote to ensuring that all decisions are fair for everyone. She has to manage a complex system, which sometimes means that people will feel wronged, but she has to do it in such a way that they don’t withdraw their support. She projects a calm façade, because she knows that signs of panic on her part will sweep through the fleet, and they must remain as untroubled as possible or violence will erupt. She can be ruthless when she needs to, but she always does so with an eye on her greater goal.

And even when she wins victory over Zarek, she knows she’ll face another battle with the Presidential elections, if she survives that long. Her final exchange with Adama showed that she’s very aware of the potential to lose that race: politics are as exciting and dangerous as war, but in politics you can get killed over and over again.

Baltar vs. Zarek: The Devil You Know

The philosophy Zarek espouses in front of the press corps is typical of the social revolutionary. His passionate words wouldn’t be out of place in Lenin’s Russia or China’s Great Leap Forward (that was really a Great Leap Back). I’m a fervent free market capitalist, and my political beliefs lean toward libertarian, so Zarek’s “new way of thinking” made my skin crawl. He has a point about the lack of a functioning economy, but I have to believe that a thriving black market exists to barter goods and services, and that as the fleet continues forward skilled workers will be employed to fill the new needs of the exodus. The economy can be revitalized without abolishing all prior customs. Zarek’s emphasis on doing what’s best for “the collective” gives me scary flashbacks to Pol Pot’s Cambodia or Plato’s Republic. It’s a recipe for political “reeducation” and repression for those that believe that self-interest is a higher calling.

Of course, Zarek isn’t just relying on rhetoric to win the vote. He’s also spent the interval since Bastille Day currying favor with other ships, sending work crews and trying to improve the lives of those who were faced with scarcity because of the way the legitimate government allocated resources. For all my love of the free market, I do recognize that this situation requires direction from above – the most important thing is for the fleet to survive, so decisions need to be made from above, just as they have been during times of war the world over. And those decisions have offended some, giving Zarek the entrée he needs to make back room deals to elevate himself to power. Zarek is charismatic enough to overwhelm Gray, whose public demeanor is stolid and uninspiring.

Zarek’s past as a terrorist, bomber of buildings, is more understandable now that we know the Colonies have only been united for half a century. If they had been together for hundreds of years, his use of violence to further his political aims would be truly anathema, forbidden by the weight of accumulated custom. But fifty years? Certainly an idealist could imagine that he could overturn this new government that imposed, in his view, injustice upon his home colony. I will forever revile the means he used to achieve his ends, no matter that they make more sense now.

A troublesome alliance forms between Zarek and Ellen Tigh, who tells her conservative husband that “Zarek is the future.” Ellen is calculating that Zarek will let her elevate her husband even further in the power structure, and shakes his hand in the hopes of getting publicity, but then Roslin upstages her by giving Zarek kisses on the cheek. Later, Ellen flirts with Zarek at the pub, subtly assuring him that she’s on his side. Zarek uses the opportunity to ask about the man Apollo has imprisoned and taunted Zarek with. I like to think that I’d have made the connection that Ellen killed or arranged to have Vallance killed upon second viewing, but I read about the theory first. It makes an incredible amount of sense, especially given Starbuck’s stained uniform tunic and Ellen’s revelation that she and her husband have a day at a luxury suite coming to them. Zarek tells Roslin that he “didn’t kill Vallance,” which leaves a lot of wiggle room. Ellen will maneuver and connive until Tigh comes around to her way of thinking about his future, but I suspect that he’ll be a harder sell than she expects.

Baltar doesn’t even know that he’s been chosen as Caprica’s representative to the Quorum until Starbuck comes by to tell him the time the Raptor is leaving the next morning. He remains twitchy as hell, despondent from the sixty years of Cylon blood tests facing him. Although Baltar says that “politics is the only thing more boring than blood samples,” his self-interest soon breaks through after a little encouragement from Six. He even naps during Quorum sessions until Six engages his attention with his biggest weakness: sex. Six seems to have realized that she can’t expect faithfulness from Gaius, and she tells him that “love isn’t about sex.” He can dally with other women because she has his heart. As ever, sweetness is followed by threat: Six can always “rip it out of [his] chest” if she needs to.

Given the eventual outcome of the Vice Presidential race, I find it interesting that Six was so adamant that Baltar second Zarek’s motion to make that the first order of business. Again, I wonder if she’s really a Cylon construct or only the creation of a brilliant but shattered mind, a mechanism for Baltar to sublimate his guilt and solve problems to his advantage. Either way, Baltar blooms under the attention he gets from the press, showing the more charming and eloquent side we saw back on Caprica. This leads to Roslin’s recruitment of Baltar in the bathroom. What is this fetish for tête-à-têtes in the head? Of course, he was giving one of the female reporters “an exclusive” in the stall he emerged from, so horndog Gaius has returned in full.

At his eventual victory party, Baltar notes to Six that he “never aspired to power,” but he’ll certainly revel in the benefits he derives from the Vice Presidency.

Pilots Are Not Cops

The fact that Apollo and Starbuck are orchestrating security for the political meetings again shows how all the survivors have been thrust into roles they normally wouldn’t have taken before the Cylon attack. Pilots are not police, and I cannot imagine that the Fleet Academy included prisoner interrogation among its course of study for pilots (although given Starbucks questioning of Leoben Conoy, I could be wrong). They should be more specialized than this, but since the Master of Arms overstepped herself in Litmus we haven’t seen her again, nor any other civilian police. I’m assuming Apollo was given this task because the President trusts him, but the execution of his duties leaves much to be desired, even if we did get cute water play between Lee and Kara as a result.

Adama warned that when the military acts as the police, the people turn into the enemy, and we get proof that his prediction is coming true from Lee’s interactions with Zarek supporter and rabble rouser Vallance. They first meet during the receiving line at the start of the Quorum sessions, but their quarrel escalates rapidly later at a nearby pub. Even though Lee recognizes that there’s a lot of unrest out in the fleet, his previous encounter with Zarek has left him with a very bad opinion of the man. And perhaps Lee’s role in giving Zarek freedom to connive within the Fleet drives his extreme reactions to Vallance and the threat of Zarek winning the Vice Presidency.

The pub brawl was quite excitingly staged, what with Apollo on the ground and Kara limping after the man she’d seen with a gun, taking him out with her cane. Vallance’s questioning allowed Lee and Kara to play good cop/bad cop, and it seems they were very precise in their tactics, since Lee tells the President that they’ve gone as far as they can. I was amused that they attempted to exploit the prisoner’s dilemma. Apparently, Vallance has taken introductory economics and understands that his best outcome is obtained by remaining silent.

Roslin is desperate to prove a connection between Vallance and Zarek, and directs her Captain Apollo to do whatever he can to find that link. This leads Lee to tell Zarek that they know about Vallance, which was probably a misstep. If my speculation above is correct, Zarek uses Ellen Tigh as his agent in removing Vallance from the picture. Lee and Kara find their prisoner with slit wrists dripping blood, and their chance to pin Zarek with criminal activities is gone for now.

Allow me to revel in the shallow side of the pool for a moment. Post-shower, towel-clad Apollo. Oh. My. God. Those arms are so glorious. I’m surprised Kara doesn’t push him back against the locker and have her wicked way with him. His insulting comments about her personal hygiene make her eventual appearance in dress and heels and hair-do quite understandable. She may be the best pilot in the fleet, but she’s also a woman and Lee degraded that part of her. Her focus on winning would make her show him up, and sex can be just as powerful as a Viper in the right circumstances. Lee is gob smacked by her gorgeousness, as well he should be.

I loved the post-election celebration party, since it allowed the characters a brief respite from their duties. Everybody except Zarek and Ellen Tigh looked happy, and it was beautiful to see them that way, even if Lt. Gaeta dances goofily.

Delphi: Revealer of Truth

When Helo saw Boomer’s double emerge from around the corner, I caught my breath. It’s so beautiful that this happened at Delphi, which was the revealer of truth in ancient Greece. The oracle at Delphi was called the Pythia, after the python Apollo slew to capture the holy place (see below). In that instant, Helo made the connection that Boomer must be a Cylon, and she suddenly moved from lover to betrayer in his mind. Sharon had been the weak link in the recurring characters for me, but her desperation to convince Helo that Cylons might be capable of love, because she fears he’ll figure it out once they attempt to steal a ship, makes her very interesting indeed.

Helo’s been thinking about the two identical blond women he saw, and he’s smart enough to come to the correct conclusion. Boomer attempts to direct his eventual reaction to her Cylon status, mentioning that if they’re human they might be capable of emotions, even love. But Helo has seen the Cylons kill billions of people, and no matter their form, they’re “frakking Cylons” to him.

Boomer really does love Helo, though, since she kills her double to protect him, even though she knows he’ll twig to her identity. She’s lost everything by this action, her place with the Cylons and her human love, and she has nothing left. Helo at least has his life, as he flees back to the woods.

Random Notes:

*We hardly see Adama at all this episode. Once when he calls Roslin after Zarek has been announced as Sagittaria’s representative, and then again at the post-election party.
*Billy’s hair is growing. He looks cute. And he danced with Dualla. Awwwww!

From Robert Graves The Greek Myths:

[Zeus] begat Apollo and Artemis on Leto, daughter of … Titans …, transforming himself and her into quails when they coupled; but jealous Hera sent the serpent Python to pursue Leto all over the world, and decreed that she should not be delivered in any place where the sun shone. Carried on the wings of the South Wing, Leto at last came to Ortygia, close to Delos, where she bore Artemis, who was no sooner born than she helped her mother across the narrow straits, and there, between an olive-tree and a date-palm growing on the north side of Delian Mount Cynthus, delivered her of Apollo on the ninth day of labour. Delos, hitherto a floating island, became immovably fixed in the sea …
* * *
Apollo, Zeus’s son by Leto, was a seven-months child, but gods grow up swiftly. Themis fed him on nectar and ambrosia, and when the fourth day dawned he called for bow and arrows, with which Hephaestus at once provided him. On leaving Delos, he made straight for Mount Parnassus, where the serpent Python, his mother’s enemy, was lurking; and wounded him severely with arrows. Python fled to the Oracle of Mother Earth at Delphi, a city so named in honour of the monster Delphine, his mate; but Apollo dared follow him into the shrine, and there dispatched him beside the sacred chasm.
* * *
The Delphic Oracle first belonged to Mother Earth, who appointed Daphnis as her prophetess; and Daphnis, seated on a tripod, drank in the fumes of prophecy, as the Pythian priestess still does. Some say that Mother Earth later resigned her rights to the Titaness Phoebe, or Themis; and that she ceded them to Apollo, who built himself a shrine of laurel-boughs brought from Tempe. But others say that Apollo robbed the oracle from Mother Earth, after killing Python, and that his Hyperborean priests Pagasus and Agyieus established his worship there.

Comments

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

That revelation puts a different spin on Colonial society

Oh, yeah. I wonder if Lee is actually more outside the norm than I thought for having a real devotion to the Articles and the idea of the Colonies as a unit.

I cannot imagine that the Fleet Academy included prisoner interrogation among its course of study for pilots (although given Starbucks questioning of Leoben Conoy, I could be wrong)

I wonder about that too. It isn't something that I'd expect pilots to be trained in, beyond the how-to-deal-with-interrogation stuff they'd get in survival training, but neither Adama nor Kara acted like there was anything unusual about the request and Kara certainly acted like she knew what she was doing.

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

I'm imagining that the Colonies were maybe established as a single unit, but broke up over time into separate political entities. Thus, they could have had a nifty multipolar interstellar power structure similar to the aftermath of the Treaty of Westphalia in Europe. Different colonies would make different alliances for centuries, shifting to and fro as their interests dictated. It could be that the Fleet was amalgamated out of the best of the individual colonies militaries. And if the integration process started a hundred years ago, Lee might be fairly mainstream. If it was more recent, maybe not.

The mirror reflects badly

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

You've hit on a couple things that point to the weakness of Moore's vision of a society reflective of the post 9/11 USA - what *does* he mean when he uses familiar phrases? What does he mean when he changes things?

In particular:

I'm a fervent free market capitalist, and my political beliefs lean toward libertarian, so Zarek's "new way of thinking" made my skin crawl.

Yes. And while I know there are those who still see communism/socialism as the great cure for all of society's ills, for me Zarek's little speech brought a great hammer down on any sympathy I might have for him and his argument. In a world that has lived through Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot, the suggestion of "collective" living and "a new way of thinking" is repulsive.

However - we don't know that one or another of the Colonies went through a phase like that - for all we know, Zarek's ideas are the same fanciful utopia that Marx's ideas looked in the 1920's. So, despite my gut feel that Zarek is a greater danger to the long term survival of the fleet than the Cylons, I'm trying to work past that.

The other point is more insidious -

Pilots are not police, and I cannot imagine that the Fleet Academy included prisoner interrogation among its course of study for pilots (although given Starbucks questioning of Leoben Conoy, I could be wrong).

Yes. And there is not a military service in the western world so set up that junior officer pilots (especially ones without prior commissioning experience) would have more than the bare bones of an idea how to fill out a witness statement, much less guide someone else through it. Lee Adama and Kara are playing this by ear, I think, the way they think it *ought* to be done - and they're doing it poorly. Also? With all those Marines, there should be atleast one mid-level NCO. That NCO should have been coordinating the security with Apollo's over sight. I could put it down to 'typical pilot ignorance' except that I honesty think the writers made an error here.

Like you, I'm not sure how to see Adama assigning that interrogation to Kara - or how to see her ready acceptance of it. The setup gave the appearance that that sort of treatment of prisoners was typical of the Colonial fleet. If so, then who were the typical prisoners? Roslin spoke of one action against civilians (on Gemino?), and spoke of it as if it were an aberration. Cylons have been gone for 40 years - Lee and Kara's generation have only seen them in photographs. And the ones they saw were walking toasters. Where did Kara learn to treat something that looked human like that?

It wouldn't bug me so much if the basic premise - real soldiers don't abuse prisoners wasn't as much a part of the American military mythology as real soldiers serve the nation, not the government or civilian rule trumps the military. This kind of a non-congruence with our time limits (or removes) Moore's ability to make a comment on our current events, imo.

Finally - I like your Artemis icon for these posts.

- hossgal

Clarification of the last paragraph

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

Before it comes up, I am aware of Seymond Hersh's book, the Taguba report (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/), and other documents and reports. (And I don't want to argue those findings here.)

My point is that on the show, there has neither the contact with "the enemy" nor sufficient length of time for a shift in policy in prisoner treatment. Nor has there been any evidence on the show of a "top down" directive encouraging such a policy shift - ie, from Roslin. So Lee and Kara's interrogations should not have been that far from acceptable in the (pre-attack) 12 Colonies. (Unless we are meant to understand that Galactica was, among the many other "non-standard" practices that Adama insisted upon, conducting OJT in prisoner interrogation techniques that he remembered from the 1st Cylon War.)

Except that wouldn't fit, either, as the Cylons look like us now. And they didn't before.

Furthermore, as you noted, neither Lee nor Kara was in a position to specialize in that sort of training. I could possibly buy that during the two years Starbuck was under Adama she absorbed a great number of policies from him, but as she's already got one "extra" non-pilot skill (rifle sniper?), my acceptance is at its breaking point. And that still leaves Lee. Unless we are to understand that interrogation of prisoners was taught to every officer candidate - *and* that abuse such as that of Lebon was considered ethically permissible by Colonial standards.

Which, again, messes with Moore's attempts to mirror the real world.

I await further clarification in canon.

- hg

Re: Clarification of the last paragraph

[cleverthylacine]

I'm REALLY glad I'm not the only one who is really bothered by the depiction of torture as acceptable in this universe. Between the way people in my other fandom are wildly critical of anyone who dares to criticise JK Rowling for giving us the WEASLEY TWINS as 'heroic' figures (because it's okay to use overkill levels of force on Bad People, even if they're Muggles) and this showing up in Galactica, it has begun to make me wonder if people who object to the use of torture against "Bad People" are fast becoming a minority in our society.

Re: Clarification of the last paragraph

[the-outsider.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but Cylons aren't people. Why would anyone object to the torture of a machine?

Re: Clarification of the last paragraph

[mikou.livejournal.com]

But they are sentient beings that have many of the basic drives that humans and other living things do, so I think some thought needs to be given to whether or not it's appropriate to treat them like machines. This is not a new subject in science fiction and I think it's an interesting one. What if you take a human and replace body parts until they're more than 50% machine, by weight. Are they still human? What if you replace part of their brain? More than half of their brain?

Most people wouldn't approve of torturing animals (e.g. dogs, cats, horses) in this way. On the other hand, they probably don't care that we use yeast in bread and bacterial cultures in yogurt. They're all living things, but some have apparent higher brain function than others.

The Cylons want to live and reproduce. They worship some sort of God and they can organize and adapt against an enemy. They may not be human, but they're not just toasters. I hope we see this discussion in the show, as the seasons progress.

Re: Clarification of the last paragraph

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

Had you left off the last sentence, I would have had no problem with this comment. As it is, I'm deleting it because of the implied insult to Mikou.

Re: Clarification of the last paragraph

[the-outsider.livejournal.com]

While it may be true that Cylons actually have some of the basic drives of human beings and seem to worship a God and want to reproduce, it also may be true that it is only part of their programming to "think" that. In a way they remind me of HAL from the movie "2001." He almost seems human at times and seems to have feelings, and when Dave deactivates him near the end, it almost seems like Dave is killing him. But it's hard to say if HAL or the Cylons actually have "real" feelings, or whether they're just very advanced "toasters" that have, as part of their programming, a belief system that only emulates the drives and emotions of actual living things.

Re: Clarification of the last paragraph

[mikou.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed "2001: A Space Odyssey" and definitely see the parallels. I've also seen this type of ethical debate in "Star Trek" and "Bladerunner." I agree that it is difficult to know whether the Cylon's feelings are "real." Then again, it's also hard to tell if a human's feelings are real. There are humans, after all, who don't experience emotions and don't have consciences like other people. I don't think there's an easy answer, but I think it's an interesting question because it makes me wonder if any of the Cylons are capable of being reformed. What about a Cylon like Sharon? Her feelings seemed genuine enough and though she committed dangerous and treasonous acts, it was not while she was consciously in control of herself. Her programming was taking over her usual personality and yet she had the will and the ability to fight against . Can she be salitvaged or should she just be destroyed as soon as she is caught? Is it even worth the effort? She has been, for the most part, a valuable member of the fleet. In a way, she's not much different than a real human being with a mental illness.

Most of the Cylons we see have clearly been an enemy to the human race and should be treated as such. I just wonder if they should all be treated the same--like dangerous weapons that need to be commissioned--or if they need to be treated individiually. Though it hasn't been perfect, I like what Ron Moore has done so far in that it's not always so black and white, which I would find very boring.

Re: Clarification of the last paragraph

[cleverthylacine]

I object to the torture (not the killing, nor to necessary pain caused in the legitimate use) of animals. Or anything else that can feel it.

I also think that if you can bring yourself to torture something that looks, feels, sounds and responds like a human, you're probably able to torture humans too. All it takes is the ability to decide that other humans aren't human, and our species is pretty good at that.

Re: The mirror reflects badly

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

for all we know, Zarek's ideas are the same fanciful utopia that Marx's ideas looked in the 1920's.

I suspect that this is close to the true state of affairs. If the Colonies had a history that included the type of totalitarianism implied in his public statements, I don't think he could have gained that much support. Visions of starving Soviet (Aerlon?) peasants would haunt his every word.

[jenah.livejournal.com]

Really some great thoughts here. I, too, shuddered at Zarek's platform and speeches. And wanted to reach in and smack him in the face. I fear what will come of his and Ellen's connection.

As far as the military acting as police - the fact that there are so few civilians and probably civilian police left is a huge factor in what the military does. And this is the same military that risks its soldiers day in and day out for the survival of the fleet. I think that the surviving civilians owe them more respect than has been given thus far and as shown in the bar. True Lee was atagonistic - but that doesn't excuse the lack of respect that he and his fellow officers have received. The fleet would be DEAD if not for their efforts.

Despite that potentially powerful card, Adama continues to remain restrained and not call for martial law. They have cylons in their midst and yet the humans continue to live as normally as possible - with a few exceptions. While I don't think that Lee and Kara are particularly brilliant as law enforcement; neither are they horrible. They do apply pressure when needed and in these dire circumstances I think that the amount of pressure they have used has been absolutely spot on.

These are desperate times when their entire race could simply vanish. And they need to be effect in a very timely fashion.

I absolutely feel horrible for Caprica Boomer and for Helo alike. I am curious to see how far she will go to earn his trust back.

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

I'm sort of frustrated with the way the fleet is handling all their untapped resources. Has there been a census? Maybe some former police could be enlisted to organize a new civilian law enforcement structure. That would leave the pilots able to do the jobs they're best suited for.

[jenah.livejournal.com]

That is a good point.

[radiotelescope.livejournal.com]

I would be... I know it's tricky to try to guess the author's intent from a work, and doubly tricky from a half-finished work. But I would be surprised if the writers *thought* they were portraying a society in which torture was acceptable. The whole point of "Flesh and Bone" was "Here we see the putative good guys going too far. Now, are they justified in going too far?"

And there was such a distinct separation between how they treated the Cylon, and how they treated the (presumed) human prisoner, that you really have to take it as -- whaddayasay -- normative.

Yes, it is unrealistic in real life for pilots to be experienced at interrogation. Much less torture. But I'm not going to go ahead and conclude that Colonial society trains *its* pilots in interrogation; it's just a place where the storytelling is unrealistic, for the usual reasons of drama. (Episodes have to be about the regular cast.)

I think it's also "just unrealistic" for the Colonial nation to be only 52 years old. You're telling me they were *building heavy carrier warships* on a ten-year-old industrial base? Ha. Unless the Colonies are much older, and only confederated 52 years ago... but then why would their high writ be called the "Articles of Colonization"? Something doesn't fit, but we'll have to watch more to decide what.

As to Zarek: I'm not sure anybody has yet pointed out the evolution of his rhetoric between his first (wireless) speech and his talk at the Cloud Nine gathering. His first speech was right in line with what he'd said in _Bastille_ -- and just as irrelevant to the fleet: Taking power from the rich and privileged, and giving it to the weak and downtrodden. (Any of the 49000 remaining refugee humans *not* feeling downtrodden these days? Hands up? Anyone?)

(Shut up, Gaius. Instrument of God, my ass. :-)

It's the second speech when Zarek begins talking about changing society and the "collective". Of course, he's exactly correct in everything he says -- except that society has *already become* a collective, and Roslin+Adama are the ruthless managers of all resources and decisions. (Roslin is in charge precisely because she switched to the "new way of thinking" the minute she understood that Caprica City was dead.) And we all seem to agree that that's the right plan, given the circumstances.

(If there's a black market, well, that's a classic marker of the planned economy, right?)

It's kind of weird, to me, that *neither* Zarek nor the viewpoint cast notice this. But I suppose everyone has already made up their minds about him -- he's either good because he's a revolutionary, or bad because he's a terrorist -- and so nobody is listening to his actual rhetoric. This would be bad storytelling, if it weren't completely realistic. Sigh.

(Baltar -- in no contrast at all -- comes off identically. His stirring speech is utterly content-free, except for the initial "Roslin is great, vote the Roslin ticket". The VP race was decided on personal charisma, not issues or even political philosophy. And we all know how much Baltar's charisma is worth when things get tight.)

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

And there was such a distinct separation between how they treated the Cylon, and how they treated the (presumed) human prisoner, that you really have to take it as -- whaddayasay -- normative. (emphasis mine)

Could you expand on this? Especially because more than one person I talked to thought that 1)Apollo was being abusive of the prisoner ("thought prisoners weren't people") and 2) assumed the marks on the prisoner were from 'being roughed up'. (I thought it was from where Starbuck beat the hell out of him, catching him.)

(I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as to why you see it that way.)

- hossgal

[radiotelescope.livejournal.com]

Lee shouts at Valance. Starbuck sneers and tells him that his buddy has already ratted him out. Lee dumps Valance's papers over his head, and slams the briefcase on the table. Starbuck tells him that he's going to be executed without trial. They are being very aggressive and scary -- but they have not *touched* Valance. As the scene is cutting out, Lee grabs Valance by the lapels; but the very next scene has Lee calmly telling Adama that they've hit the limit, or words to that effect, and Valance has not cracked. So I don't read that grab as the prelude to a beating.

(I also note that Valance is not acting very fearful. He acts like all they've got on him is illegal possession of a weapon, or some such charge. He doesn't *believe* that he's going to be executed, or even severely hurt. Which, of course, is correct.)

(Well, er, not executed by his captors anyway.)

In contrast, Leoben the Cylon was beaten bloody, half-drowned, and thrown out an airlock. The episode made no bones (har har) about showing us all its vicious glory. (Leoben didn't act fearful either; he acted like a fanatic on a suicide mission. Which was also correct.)

The Valance scene alone could be read as "Colonial society roughs up its prisoners".... *if* you assume that he was physically beaten off-camera. However, after seeing Leoben, it's hard to assume that. And if you don't, then Valance was, well, interrogated. In the sense that we all used to use that word, four years ago. Lee and Starbuck did their best to scare him, but they stopped right there.

[radiotelescope.livejournal.com]

Re-reading this, I have to retract what I said about the race being *solely* personal charisma. There was one political, or at least buzzword, difference: Zarek was for "change and a new society", Baltar was for "traditional values and our old society".

So, a liberal-versus-conservative split -- in the most superficial sense of those terms. (Again, Zarek gave only the vaguest policy proposals, which sounded like he hadn't changed the wording since he was in college. And Baltar had no policies at all.) (Wallie was the policy wonk, ah Wallie, the fleet will miss you. Oops and oh dear. By the way, Roslin was correct to boot him from the race, but she was *wrong* to offer him the post in the first place. That was a big fat Roslin mistake -- I think the first mistake she's made without the excuse of incomplete information. Now she's paid harshly for it. And *everyone* pays for Roslin's mistakes.)

Anyway, as several people have already commented, the shellshocked Colonials are desperate to hold onto any image of their lost lives, no matter how superficial. So Baltar was, in the end, playing the correct political game.

I don't see any commentary of this "liberal-versus-conservative" on real-life politics. Even the *superficial* definitions of those two words have skewed, in today's America, to something unrecognizable. Never mind what they actually *mean*, if you look at the so-described liberal and conservative political movements we have.

And now, it's way past my bedtime. :)

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I thought there was a marked distinction between the way Leoben and Vallance were questioned. Even though Starbuck *threatened* the human with the airlock, Lee said they wouldn't follow through on it.

As for Colonial society, if they started to integrate over a century ago with ties growing closer and closer and leading to the Articles of Colonization, their military fleet would make more sense. It's also possible that the biggest/most power colonies had their own forces that were combined at some point.